Tonight around 6, as people gathered peacefully at Highway 1 and Linda Mar to protest the war in Gaza, an enraged motorist stopped in traffic and engaged in a shouting match with the demonstrators. Then he parked his car at the shopping center and returned to the scene, shouting and shoving demonstrators, slightly injuring one of them. When the agitated man ran through the parking lot, several demonstrators followed him to take his picture and hold him for police, who shortly came on the scene to question the man and several witnesses. No one pressed charges, so because police did not see the incident occur, they took down the man's information and released him. One bystander noted that as soon as the police detained him, his demeanor changed drastically, and he spoke calmly with police as if nothing had happened. But this reporter had heard the man shouting earlier and had seen him up close as he ran through the parking lot, his face and eyes full of hate and fear.
JOHN MAYBURY
EDITOR & PUBLISHER
"Percentages of population as a way of assessing the importance of the people murdered?
You've got to be kidding."
"That wasn't what we were talking about, Lionel. The issue was whether what was going on was a "genocide," not whether the lives being lost mattered."
Actually, Steve, there is no more important issue than life (including ours) on this planet.
Matthew, thank you for clarifying, I really appreciate it.
Let's hope our new president has the wisdom to apply pressure where it hasn't been applied before.
Posted by: Lionel Emde | January 21, 2009 at 08:49 PM
One of our new president's very first actions was to call all the leaders in the region and consider appointing a special Middle East envoy.
With that in mind, could we follow Washington's lead and call a peace conference on Riptide?
I'll start by apologizing sincerely for giving the impression that I did not think the Palestinian lives lost were a deep and enduring tragedy.
I believe that taking any human life is a sin and an abomination and can never be justified.
Posted by: Matthew Levie | January 21, 2009 at 05:15 PM
"Sell Gaza to Don Peebles and have him bulldoze it and put luxury high-rise hotels there instead. It'll bring in money and the Palestinians will be rich."
I'm sure there's some endangered weed or bug in Gaza that the "we-are-at-one-with-the-earth"-types on the other side of the planet will deem as more important than the welfare of the Palestinians. So this won't work.
I like the out-of-the-box thinking, though!
Posted by: Steve Sinai | January 21, 2009 at 04:47 PM
Sell Gaza to Don Peebles and have him bulldoze it and put luxury high-rise hotels there instead. It'll bring in money and the Palestinians will be rich.
Posted by: Frank Siciliano | January 21, 2009 at 03:54 PM
"....my best friends and the beloved Jewish entertainers, that the propaganda machine keeps reminding us are Jewish, are not the ones bombing...." Oh yeah? I have watched many Jewish comedians "bomb" at comedy clubs all across America. Clearly their propoganda so-called "shtick" is merely a plot to subject us to "Zionist" ha-ha and control the media (except for Keith Olbermann).
Posted by: Linty Marr | January 21, 2009 at 12:30 PM
Okay, what's your solution for Israel when Hamas continues to shoot rockets at their civilians? Put on a happy face and whistle "It's a Small World"? Is that not included in your "swear off doing physical or mental/psychological damage"?
Posted by: Scotty | January 21, 2009 at 09:31 AM
For the record:
No I am not anti-Semitic or any other kind of racist. Some of my best friends are white, Jewish, Black, Armenian, Indian (both kinds), German, French, Welsh, Chinese, etc.
My best friends and the beloved Jewish entertainers, that the propaganda machine keeps reminding us are Jewish, are not the ones bombing innocent civilians with phosphorous and spent uranium.
The reason that I lay a bit more blame on Israel and on the United States when I say that the misbehaviors must cease has to do with who is more powerful in the conflict and can therefore afford a more magnanimous gesture. That does not make me in favor of 9/11 or of any violence against any Israelis.
How about we all swear off doing physical or mental/psychological damage to each other and see what we might accomplish without it.
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 20, 2009 at 11:28 PM
"Percentages of population as a way of assessing the importance of the people murdered?
You've got to be kidding."
That wasn't what we were talking about, Lionel. The issue was whether what was going on was a "genocide," not whether the lives being lost mattered.
So you think it's all Israel's fault, huh? Black/white, good/evil, you're with us or against us? Gee, that kind of binary thinking reminds me of someone else.
Posted by: Steve Sinai | January 20, 2009 at 10:39 PM
I don't know if Dan's anti-Semitic or not, so you're right -- that's a silly accusation. I should have instead referenced his closed-minded, anti-Israeli point of view. People who want to lay blame on one side in this conflict are lazy, as there is plenty of blame to go around for both sides.
Posted by: Scotty | January 20, 2009 at 10:11 PM
Percentages of population as a way of assessing the importance of the people murdered?
You've got to be kidding.
By that standard of logic, the Israeli casualties are unimportant. I don't accept that.
Murder is murder.
The Israelis used white phosphorus as a weapon and Arab governments are accusing them of using depleted uranium as a weapon as well.
Depleted uranium munitions are the gift that keeps on giving.
Stop the wars!
Posted by: Lionel Emde | January 20, 2009 at 09:14 PM
Don't blame the messenger. Feelings run high, people take sides, opinions are expressed. This is a reflection on the commenters and their views, not on Riptide. If you read the federal Communications Decency Act, you will see that Web sites are not held responsible for the views of their commenters, or for any posted content. I have worked very hard to develop Riptide's terms of service to prevent name calling and personal attacks. But Riptide readers are adults and as such are responsible for their own expressions. This is not a nanny site.
Posted by: PACIFICA RIPTIDE | January 20, 2009 at 08:07 PM
Riptide turns ugly.
Posted by: Summer Rhodes | January 20, 2009 at 07:51 PM
"You can close your eyes to the facts if that fits your little anti-Semitic story better, but it still doesn't make it real."
I obviously don't agree with Dan's interpretation of what's going on in the Middle East, but Dan's not anti-Semitic. ("Anti-Semitic" - yet another cheap, easy charge to level.) People can complain about Israeli government policy without hating Jews. People can complain about Palestinian actions and attitudes without hating Arabs or Muslims.
Posted by: Steve Sinai | January 20, 2009 at 05:07 PM
The United States had a great many presidents while we were killing off the Native Americans. Most (but not all) European settlers valued European culture and perspectives and did not have any respect at all for Native American cultures. I'm sure it seemed only natural to kill off any Native Americans who objected to their land being taken away and I have no doubt that if I had been raised in that time and in that culture I would be likely to see things that way. Not that there aren't, in all such dominant cultures those who oppose such abuses.
I know there has a strong (in the sense of many people but not in the sense of being able to control the government)peace movement in Israel as there is in the US. Many of the Jewish people I know are in the peace movement here and deplore the actions of the powers that be in Israel and in the US and others who use violent means to solve their problems. Instituting rule of law needs to come from the more powerful side and that is why people like Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld need to be tried as war criminals. I would leave it to the Israelis and Palestinians to recognize who among them is more the problem than the solution but if we keep having people who belong in jail making our foreign policy decisions we will continue to get what we have been getting. Obama's presidency looks hopeful. We shall see...
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 20, 2009 at 08:32 AM
I don't know if there's any source for numbers that I'd totally trust, but using numbers from Wikipedia, the total Palestinian deaths since the start of the First Intifada in 1987 through the latest Gaza fighting is 7335. That's still pretty close to the 0.2% figure that Matt gave. The numbers are disheartening, but they're hardly deserving of the term "genocide."
Total Israeli deaths over the same period is 1466.
"Genocide," like "racist," is one of those cheap, easy accusations that's thrown around so much that it doesn't mean anything anymore. If someone's going to make the accusation of genocide, then they need to provide numbers which show that's the case, rather than make others prove that it's not. Until then, I just consider the use of the term "genocide" as overused hyperbole.
I have lots of problems with the way Israel treats Palestinians, but Israel's official position regarding Gaza and the West Bank is a 2-state solution. Hamas' official position is that Israel must be destroyed. I wish people would remember that before they decide that everything is Israel's fault.
Posted by: Steve Sinai | January 20, 2009 at 01:11 AM
Yes, Israel showed how much they wanted that property by having the Israeli army remove Israeli settlers by force. What has Hamas done to show that it wants peace?
You can close your eyes to the facts if that fits your little anti-Semitic story better, but it still doesn't make it real.
Posted by: Scotty | January 20, 2009 at 12:46 AM
Mr. Underhill claims there exists an "ethnic cleansing" driven by a goal to steal Palestinian property, and "has been the intent all along." Words are important - what exactly do these words mean? Given that in over 60 years as a State, Israel has had a left wing labour, right wing conservative, and centrist governments, coalitions that barely hold together. and Israelis come from the most diverse lands speak dozens of languages and are cultural diverse, given these vast differences what then could be the "common thread" that could hold this wanton lawlessness together? I can come to only one possible set of facts that could have lead to his conclusion...they are Jews, and we once again have the expression of a despicable trope uttered shamelessly. It is my hope his statement was not intended to leave this impression, so I will give him the benefit of the doubt. I suggest he or anyone else looking for a land grab in Palestine ask a Palestinian Christian what the facts are - you can find most of them outside Palestine.
Posted by: Linty Marr | January 19, 2009 at 11:04 PM
What would the Palestinian population have been immediately before "operation Cast Lead" if there hadn't been systematic (all with their attendant excuses) "disproportionate responses"(as the UN so delicately puts it), and sieges, and the bulldozing of homes, and confiscation of land and homes, and collective punishments etc. etc. for many decades? That might change the numbers a bit. Doing one's genocide piecemeal (the way it was done in the USA) will not change what it is. Also, how many of the rest of us would allow all of these things to be done to our families and not be sorely tempted to respond in kind to whatever limited extent one could. I am not encouraging anybody's violence, but I can understand where it comes from.
The United States should not be providing weapons to either side in that conflict. If we weren't doing that, our posing as peacemakers might begin to mean something someday.
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 19, 2009 at 10:17 PM
Population of Gaza Strip: 1.4 million
Palestinian casualties of operation Cast Lead: 1,300
That's less than 0.1%.
Entire Palestinian population: 3.6 million
Total Palestinian casualties during the entire eight-year Second Intifada (including Cast Lead): 7,200
That's around 0.2%.
Germans killed by the Allies during World War II, which presumably nobody considers a genocide: around 10% of the population
Tutsis killed in Rwandan genocide: around 77%
Armenians killed in Armenian genocide: 33-50%
Posted by: Matthew Levie | January 19, 2009 at 08:36 PM
One of the locals in Gaza reported tonight on Flashpoints (KPFA 94.1FM, flashpoints.net) that a resident of Gaza was shot by Israeli troops after the ceasefire was declared.
What's it take for you to recognize an occupation by a foreign power???
Posted by: Lionel Emde | January 19, 2009 at 08:19 PM
Bull pucky! No matter what rhetoric one might use to dance around it, it is what genocide is, the Palestinians die and Israel ends up with their property as with all other genocides, and as has been the intent all along.
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 19, 2009 at 02:31 PM
Calling this a genocide shamefully diminishes the atrocities of true genocides, and laying blame on one side of the equation in this conflict is both simplistic and naïve. While it can be argued that the Israeli response has been disproportionate, Hamas could easily reduce some of the civilian losses by discontinuing their use of human shields. But then, they've already shown that they don't care about civilian losses, since that is who they target in Israel with their missiles (and this is after Israel at least gave an indication that they would try to start the peace process by pulling out of Gaza). If a country was indiscriminately shooting missiles into Pacifica, I would hope that my government did something to protect us as well.
Posted by: Scotty | January 19, 2009 at 11:26 AM
Israel has now magnanimously unilaterally paused the ethnic cleansing of Palestine yet again. Since it is now a matter of shooting at a totally imprisoned and besieged population, and since they have the (totally immoral) backing of the leadership of the United States if America they can do what they care to with impunity. We, as a nation need to get our priorities straight and not tolerate genocide regardless of who is doing it.
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 18, 2009 at 08:49 AM
I, as an American, can understand the perspective of President Shimon Peres. We (my ancestors) had the same problems of killing off indigenous people of America. Even when we paused the genocide for a while, they still attacked as if we had not, so of course we put them onto reservations, as you have done with the Palestinians, where (when they object to the war crimes being practiced on them) one can shoot them like fish in a barrel.
I can understand it, but I can't condone genocide of American Indians or genocide of Palestiniana. Israel needs to rethink its policy because a great many people like me who have liked, or at least had a good understanding with, pretty much every Jewish person we have met cannot condone having our country support anybody who is engaged in genocide. The United States needs to stop sending aid to Israel because Israel is using it in ways that are damaging to Israel and to its neighbors so it is considerably worse than a waste of resources. Even most of the Jews I have talked to on the subject oppose Israel's policies toward the Palestinians.
Posted by: Dan Underhill | January 11, 2009 at 02:52 PM
Sunday, December 28, 2008
President Shimon Peres Has Made A Special Statement on "Operation Cast Lead" and the Ongoing Palestinian Rocket Attacks
This morning, President Shimon Peres made a special statement to the media regarding Operation Cast Lead (Israel's attack on the Hamas terror infrastructure in Gaza) and the ongoing Palestinian rocket fire on civilian areas in southern Israel. A transcript of the statement, which is also available on video from the Associated Press and Reuters, is below.
It is the first time in the history of Israel that we, the Israelis, cannot understand the motives or the purposes of the ones who are shooting at us. It is the most unreasonable war, done by the most unreasonable warriors.
The story is simple. Israel has left Gaza completely, out of our own free will, at a high cost. In Gaza there is no single Israeli civilian or soldier. They were evacuated from Gaza, our settlements, which called for a very expensive cost. We had to mobilize 45,000 policemen to take out our settlers from there. We spent $2.5 billion. The passages were open. Money was sent to Gaza. We suggested aid in many ways - economically, medically, and otherwise. We were very careful not to make the lives of the civilian people in Gaza difficult. Still I have not heard until now a single person who could explain to us reasonably: why are they firing rockets against Israel? What are the reasons? What is the purpose?
And I must say also that the phenomenon about Israel is the restraint of the army and the unity of the people. The army waited and waited; the Palestinians asked for a ceasefire, and we agreed. They themselves have violated the ceasefire. Again, we didn't know why, until it came to a point where we were left without a choice but to bring an end to it. The operation was planned carefully and the army was true to its principles: namely, to be precise in its targets and careful not to hit civilian life. There is a problem because many of the bombs were stored in private houses. We have contacted the owners of the houses, the people that dwell there, and told them leave it. You can't live with bombs. We have to bring an end to the source of the bombs.
Israel doesn't have any ambition in Gaza. We left out of our free choice. We have never gone back to the idea of returning to Gaza. It's over. But we cannot permit that Gaza will become a permanent base of threatening and even killing children and innocent people in Israel for God knows why. I feel that in our hearts, we don't have any hatred for the Gazan people. Their suffering doesn't carry any joy in our hearts. On the contrary, we feel that the better they will have it, better neighbors we shall have. Now that Hamas is turning to the Arab world for help, the truth is that the Arab world has to turn to Hamas for the help of Hamas. If Hamas will stop it, there is no need for any help. Everything can come again to normalcy. Passages: open; economic life: free; no Israeli intervention; no Israeli participation in any of the turnarounds in Gaza.
As a nation, we feel united. As a nation, there is wholehearted support for the army, the way they handled it, their restraint, their discrimination, and their responsibility. The great winner can be reason, and reason will lead to peace. We are very serious, in a serious mood. Many of our children are still in the shelters, and we would like them, like the children of Gaza, to breathe fresh air again. This is the story, and whoever asks us to stop shooting - they have to change the address. Let them turn to Hamas and ask them to stop shooting, and there won't be shooting. Thank you very much.
Posted by: gm | January 10, 2009 at 05:05 PM